We've all had to negotiate at one point in our lives, but media negotiations, especially in the the audio advertising world, take a certain level of finesse. In this episode of On the Mic with Ad Results Media, our team sits down to discuss the secret sauce behind negotiating in the audio space.
Podcast Transcript
0 (0s):
Okay guys. Well, thank you so much for joining us on, On the Mic. I wanted to take a moment to introduce each one of you to our listeners. So Kaylee, why don't we start with you?
1 (9s):
I'm Kaylee Stover. I'm an account strategist here at IBM doing this for about eight years now. Hi, my name's Meredith Dale and I am a senior account strategist here at Ad Results. I've been working at the company for about two years and I've been in the advertising industry for about 15 years. Hi, my name is Elizabeth lunch and I am an account director here at Ad Results. I have been in the media industry since 2006.
2 (36s):
Wow. I guess that makes me the, the longest tenured rep here. I'm a Larry Goldberg. I'm with a cadence 13, a division of Odyssey I've been selling either radio and or Audio. And now Podcasting since 1998,
0 (49s):
Too. Kind of launch us into this Negotiations chat. I want to talk about some of the best practices to finding wins for both parties from both sides.
1 (57s):
I would say a starting point is always just to reach out to the rep and see what their rate is for whatever show your interested in picking up for your client and kind of go from there. It's always good to have some initial rate as a starting point to then kind of discuss the Negotiations.
2 (1m 17s):
I take it that the three of you may have very similar answers to each other. Whereas I might be the oddball here because of my side of the table versus your side. So I'll try and counterbalance, but you guys say my, my whole key and what I've learned in my 20 plus years of negotiating is the sort of over-communicating right. We always just want to really have a breath of fresh air and know exactly what each other's goals are. I've learned that the more you hide, the more you don't learn. So the more you give, the more you get in that sense. And that can also go with whether you're in negotiating with your car auto body parts for a new tires, or if you're negotiating a media buyer. My, my number one goal was to always just over-communicate and kind of play all my cards on the table.
1 (1m 54s):
I like to consider what is at stake for both sides or what is important to both sides and leverage that whatever I'm negotiating. So for instance, Larry, you want to make more money, right? I want the client to be successful. So I want a lower rate to ensure we step out on a, On a good foot and I can promise you more business, right? And so that would be a reason for you to help me out. And then I would help you out of return. So just seeing what's important to both parties and what would would be successful for both parties.
2 (2m 26s):
Beautiful answer, Elizabeth. What I would counter to that is I will make more money if you're a client's happy. So it's my job to make sure that you and your client are happy. And maybe not tomorrow, maybe not in may, but over the course of the rest of 2021, Larry will make more money if your clients have. And that's kind of like the other part of what I going through negotiation is sort of put yourself in the other person's shoes. And that's kind of goes back to what you're saying of, you know, what everybody kind of wants in the end is you really have to see it from both sides.
1 (2m 54s):
And I think to hit on your point, Larry, about over-communicating. I always like to that it is a test for either like a brand new client or a client that's new to that show. So what can we do write off the bat to ensure that the test is going to do well, so we can then book it out.
2 (3m 13s):
No, that's helpful. It's helpful to know as much information as you guys can give to me or to anybody that you're a, you know, that you're buying from as much information as we have in the beginning. Part of a negotiation it's beneficial.
1 (3m 26s):
Yeah. I think that's the key thing is going in with everybody, giving everybody as much information as possible. So we can all come to an agreement On, okay, what is the whats going to be the best rate for this test, especially if it's a new client or if it's a renewal, like what rate can we renew it? If the show has grown to ensure that one of the client can continue to be successful at the new rate or keeping the rate flat to continue to see that success along the lines with a renewal.
2 (3m 53s):
I think also it's a little different when you're working with such clients like yourselves, where while I agree that performance always matters. I think when with a direct response agency or direct Results agency like yourselves, it's a little bit more imperative than maybe if you're working on a brand client like Coca-Cola or a Delta. And they're really just looking for tonnage of impressions or branding spots versus Results. So knowing what you're saying Meredith About, you know, the client's goals upfront that it's a test, it's a new client to your agency, certainly very helpful. Whereas if we just give you tons of impressions and you don't get any Results, its kind of useless. So what's some of the craziest things you've ever asked a partner for.
2 (4m 34s):
I've never really asked a much because I'm on the sell side. You know, I like to remind myself that it's still Media, you know, whether it's Podcasting or radio or, or impressions or commercials, it's just how creative can we get? I did have a client. One time asked me I was working with British airways and they were coming out with a new flatbed seat for air flights from San Francisco to London. And I was selling the San Francisco 49ers a football on the radio. And they were wondering if we could do some sort of display where the actual beds and the chairs could be displayed outside of candlestick park at the time, you know, my whole response to that was kinda like, this is not a TV broadcast. This is radio and we're not generating that many foot traffic.
2 (5m 14s):
And you'll, you'll, you'll get the 75,000 people that are out the football game, but not the, not the best usage of anybody's creative mind.
1 (5m 21s):
Let's say we've asked before for a trip, but in the sense of it being part of a sort of win contest so that the, you know, the network would provide,
2 (5m 29s):
I've been a part of the agency Negotiations where trips were demanded, Superbowl reps can Coon trips, stuff like that. Vacations in New York specifically I've seen $500 gift cards given away like that back in the day for birthdays and or certain buys, I've seen someone asked for a Louis Vuitton handbag without, without naming names. I've seen that happen at some of the bigger agencies with some of the older buyers that you know, were sort of well into what they knew, what they wanted. Just one handbag, just the one that's where the story goes. It was a, was a, a Louis
3 (5m 58s):
Vuitton for a New York buyer out of a major New York agency. And it was a pretty well documented here. So you're saying that we're not doing a good job over here with our Negotiations, but those aren't what they used to be like the craziest thing. But you know, just in, in my tenure has been, when I was doing outdoor, I had a client that was like, no, we won a contract completely redone because a vinyl blew off of a billboard. That's like the craziest thing I've seen. And then, you know, just make it a shading, but additional bonus spots for, you know, under performance or something like that. So I haven't seen that much crazy things over my, my tenure.
3 (6m 38s):
Well, if you want to go back to like best practices, I think relationships is a, is a really great practice. So just keeping a great, like Larry, you probably one of my favorite reps. So we have a solid relationships. There's a couple that are up there with you, but yes, I would say you're my favorite Podcast rep. How about that? You're one of my favorite channel reps, so right. So yeah, but just having a good relationship because you know that they're going to be honest with you and you can cut the crap, you know, and just get to, you know, what can we do for each other and how can we make this work? And those relationships go much better because you know your on the same team instead of just protecting your own. And so that's why I like to go back to understanding what's important to both sides.
3 (7m 19s):
I think you nailed it. Relationships are as the business gets faster and we're doing more and more every minute of the day, even from home, I think that the relationship factor is still a huge and you still rely on those relationships. And if you've got 10 phone calls to make you going to call your two or three best relationships first, because you know, those are the easy phone calls and then you got to call your three worst relationships last because those are obviously the tougher phone calls or the ones that you just don't want to do. So yes, it's still a relationship game. Yeah, absolutely. I've had to completely agree. I think that's like the most important part of like what we do is maintaining those relationships and just making sure that like, yes, you're getting what the client wants, but also not trying to like B to B over the top with your demands and just being mutual, understanding of like what they want, what they need, what you need.
3 (8m 4s):
Relationships are so important in what we do. And I would say that, you know, something, if there's something that happens that there's a big fire, I could easily pick up the phone with Larry. Like, you know, and just be like, Hey, we've got this, we've got to go now. And he'd be like, okay, because we have a good relationship and they're more likely to work quicker and in work in your favor. And when something like that does happen, you guys are our best sales people, right? You guys are the ones talking to the clients. So I have to rely on you and feed you and give you as much information usually as possible and sell you and make you believe in the facts that I believe in so that you can help get across the goal line. So yeah, I think that's very important.
4 (8m 42s):
So as far as like, I think most people, when they think about a negotiation, they tend to to think, okay, like I'm going to try this tactic or this strategy is there, is there an overall approach that works best? Like I know people are probably familiar with splitting the difference, is that always the best way to go about it? Or if not, why
3 (9m 1s):
It depends on the objective. Right? So not always, if you're within a certain budget and you need to yes. But if, for instance, at the end of the day, sometimes the networks have a certain dollar amount that they have to hit for the rate. And so they don't want to go under, but they'd be willing to give extra in addition. So you can always do like the ECPM right. Or add in the, the value of whatever a bonus. Right. I don't think that's the end all. Maybe if you don't have a good relationship, that's probably where you can hope it could end up at. I think it depends on the situation. You know, there are people that we're going to be working with where we just started working with them and you don't really have a relationship built up with them. So for example, in that, I would be a little bit more formal, I guess, in a way with, with that person, I don't know as well.
3 (9m 45s):
And so I'm gonna follow a little bit more of like a, you know, a little bit more of a structure of like, okay, here's what I'm trying to do, but here's what your trying to do. Whereas somebody like Larry, for example, I can call and be like, Hey, this is what I need to do. What can you do? And just be a little bit more informal, but I think it just really depends on your client's objectives to every client. I negotiate, I think differently for every client that I have. So I think it's just, it just depends. Really. We have some clients who need their talents to be in the interviews. We have some clients where we know this season that they're strongest, it's a dead season for the most other clients. And so we can leverage that and we can ask for more than the meet in the middle because we know that there's inventory to be sold. Again, it goes back to what the objectives are.
3 (10m 25s):
The seasonality with a client needs to answer your question, the splitting, the difference approach. To me, that's more of a compromise and not a negotiation. I don't want to say the easier or lazy way out, but its sort of like maybe if you're at a standstill, you'd kind of come to that kind of conclusion. But I think that every negotiation kind of is unique in its own. And while you may lean on or learn from past experiences, you know, what happens in the future is kind of going to be its own kind of negotiation. So in that sense, you know, I don't think that splitting the difference is really the way to go. I think that you really have to give and take. I think also it depends on the kind of the marketplace we're talking about, right? If it's a heavy demand and it's a sellers market, I've got less leeway, right. But if it's a buyer's market and I've got tons of inventory, like Elizabeth was saying, then you know, like I'm going to probably lose that leverage and not losing negotiation, but give more than maybe I would of had to in Q4 or around the election or mother's day sales are coming around and you're looking for a female inventory so to speak.
3 (11m 22s):
So I think it really depends on the marketplace. And each one is very unique to its own.
4 (11m 26s):
I got to stick on this too much, but I think people have this idea that splitting the differences kind of what negotiation is about. But universally we're saying that's really not really what this is About at all.
3 (11m 36s):
Most times, not, not, not, you know, 99 times out of a a hundred. I think that the agency are, the client typically gets the benefit or the better of the negotiation because you have the money. And now with this space having, I mean, one of the Apple say 2 million Podcast, we're really only a 156,000 are actually
2 (11m 54s):
Active with them more than three over the last four weeks. So there's a lot of competitors out there in the marketplace is crazy. So I'd be foolish to stand my ground hold firm because he had some place else to go, right. I still have to do right for my shows and be strong about it. But at the same time, I probably have to give a little more, you know, you also have to understand that, like if you're a newer Podcast company and you think that you demand a $40 CPM and that's the value of what you are, you know, like I see you guys nodding your heads were like, you guys have the right to walk away from that and go find another host. That's re ready to work, ready to play ball.
3 (12m 28s):
And we do. And they come right back to us in a few months and say, how can we get your agency to work with us?
2 (12m 36s):
But you learn the hard way. And then now the, now they become the pushover in the negotiation until they've proven that they can do right by your clients.
3 (12m 45s):
Right? Yeah. If somebody comes to me as a brand, new show is a brand new, some of had never worked with before and they're like, it's a $45 deep. Yeah. And then we're going to be realistic being like, no, we need this, we need this CPM because it's an untested show in the agency. And if they're not going to work with us and be like, I'm sorry. Well, we can't give you our business right now. But exactly what Elizabeth said, they'll come back to us in a couple of months being like, what can we do? What can we do? And it's like, well, we told you what you could do at the beginning. But, but yeah. So
2 (13m 13s):
When I took over working with ed Results was June of one year is this 21, June of 18. And at the time it was Jenna and Christina and they told me that whatever was going on in cadence was broke. Like it just wasn't working between the previous two people. And that we went from a preferred supplier to just a regular, you know, a regular Podcast company and the lights and minds of everybody to ed Results. So, you know, I made sure I worked extra hard to become, you know, a, a resource be a really good partner, build a relationships, but I probably need it to your point. I probably lost every one of those Negotiations because I had to write, I, I kind of had to play from the firm, a defeated purpose or a defeated side of the, of the game until I earned some respect and I earned a little bit of trust.
2 (13m 58s):
And then you can leverage that so to speak and, and, and build from those things.
3 (14m 2s):
But because arm has so many clients, I mean, you really don't need to go far to have a bunch of clients for you, Larry. So I mean, if you can get one or two of us to working, we start talking internally. Cause we share, you know, data and find out who's working. Who's not what was, what were the results. And eventually it becomes a test on several other shows. So
2 (14m 24s):
You don't get to know, we talk about it internally and that, and that's not really the negotiation side of it, but you know, if something works really well, it, it gets passed around the agency. If something doesn't work really well, spreads like wildfire and that's dope. It's almost like it's like a it's burned, but it's almost like an undercover competence burned. Like you just can't become, but then what do you do? Right. Like I can't just tell that show that they're not getting Ad Results Business. You know, that's 50 clients down the drain, so we've got to work a little harder. Maybe we've got to change the, maybe they got to work on their
3 (14m 52s):
Ad reads. Maybe they have to endorse more, you know, or, or you better join an onboarding call to the client feels warm and fuzzy. So maybe that's not part of the negotiation during the pricing challenges or the, the CPM talk, but there's a part of that negotiation of how we can do more for the Business. Exactly like different creative, special segments for contests integrating into the show. So those are also negotiation tools for that. Yeah. And I think sometimes there is a time where you have to compromise with each other. Like if you, especially, if it's like a show that is high in high demand is highly sold out and you know, you're like, okay, well it's a $40 CPM and that's all I can do.
3 (15m 33s):
And there does come a point where you do, you have to compromise in a way, like, not always, but you know, sometimes you're like, well, I really want to test to show what's working at the CPF or others. And just as the buyer here, like we just have to decide, make a decision. Like, do we wanna test to show enough that we wanted to test it right now when demand is really high? So it's compromise does come into it and in a way, but I would say more often than not, it's not always a compromise. Yeah. There's more that you can do as, instead of just negotiating the rate, like if this is what the rate is and I really want to be on the show. Okay, I'll do it. But what else can you do for me to kind of help me sway the client to show them that this really is a good idea and we're all working together, you know, to, to do, to have the best outcome for the client while also, you know, giving the, the network, the show, the rep, what they need.
3 (16m 31s):
Right. Yeah, definitely look a bit more holistically. Right? Like as much as I said before, I want the client to have performance and deliver results. Right. I want you to have a great experience too, because of what we said before with relationships. So it's gotta be like, you don't want to strong-arm anybody into buying something. They really don't want to buy. It's never going to work that way. It just has no chance off the ground floor. So whether it's giving you another show at a discount to help offset the cost of the one show, or maybe it's the, like I said, having the host, joining the onboarding calls, so the client can talk to the host and to get, really get them to feel were most of our hosts don't join onboarding calls or maybe it's, you know, giving you a Louis Vuitton bag or whatever it may be, you know, whatever we have to figure out.
3 (17m 12s):
But I think the whole experience of negotiating, if it doesn't feel warm and fuzzy at the end of the negotiation, then neither of us really had one
4 (17m 21s):
To say, you know, you all have touched on this as well. The volatility and the market being so huge and it's growing all the time. And even beyond like volatility with some just inherent seasonality to the experience and with all that kind of in the background, I'm curious if you're going into a negotiation, how do you prepare? Like, can you even be prepared for all the possible scenarios and how do you try to prepare as best as you can? My husband has
1 (17m 50s):
Taught me to go into a room and know all of the exits before, you know, before anything goes down just in case something goes down. So I kind of see that as a similar, you know, exercise. So I like to go into Negotiations kind of considering what might happen again, if you know the relationship, you kind of can plan on how to go. I've worked with some of the planners and strategists, like, okay, you're negotiating with this person. Do you know he's gonna do this? So let's plan for X, Y, and Z. I work in law enforcement. No, but his family is very much a military and law enforcement. So yes, he, he asked me, he will ask me like, how do we get back home? I'm like, I don't know, you're driving.
2 (18m 31s):
They're all the, all the rest of us are sitting here, like exit strategy. No, I don't think so.
1 (18m 37s):
Well, exit study is in like, how can it end? Right. So we know it might end up at the compromise, right? If, if it's a, a rep that doesn't really give a lot and the relationship and we know what their bottom line is or what their agenda is, but it very well could be something like me come to you, Larry. And this show, you know, hasn't performed and we have another spot still that we have to work with, but I really need help, you know, to get it off the ground. I mean, you, I think would, would do your best to bend over backwards and get creative. Like you mentioned, give us a discount on another show. That's like, I love that. And so I know whenever I'm approaching you, how I can get different responses or that I'm going to be okay. Sometimes I'm not all right, not okay, but I just know that there's going to be different outcomes likely that could happen.
1 (19m 21s):
That I'm not prepared for
2 (19m 22s):
Learning from past experiences. When I was at iHeart years ago, we did this Negotiations training in Baltimore, Maryland, and it was probably like 40 people. And that was my biggest takeaway was it was always having a coach in a negotiation. And that coach could be somebody either on your team, somebody not in the game at all, somebody at the, at the client level that you may be is your inside source. And you try and learn or build from that coach. And usually what I like to do is in this case, most of the time, my coach is usually Merv for somebody in my team and we role play a little bit. And we just discuss, like, if a, if we go this direction where my, you know, the client thinks is to go, and then not that we're playing checkers versus chess, but like you want to think a step or two ahead and be prepared, which is the second thing I was gonna say.
2 (20m 6s):
And I learned this in 99 from my president of ABC. He told us the role of the six P's, which is proper preparation, prevents piss poor performance. And you know, the six PS just enables you in everything. And again, this doesn't really go towards maybe Media. It goes towards, I use it in all walks of life. And I teach my kids in that way to me, without the , but just prepare right. Be prepared, whether you're practicing soccer and you have a game or the next day you practice, like you want to play right. When you're preparing for whether it's a work in negotiation or not, you kind of go through all the steps in your head and you just want to be prepared for everything
1 (20m 41s):
Being prepared is really the best way to kind of get what you need and get what you want, but we'll make it work. Like I think for us at Ad Results, we're very lucky that we had such an extensive list of clients that are pretty much on most of the shows. So we have a database that we can access and see what every client is paying. So you kind of can go in your Negotiations with that in the back of your mind, but then also just being open, open to suggestions, like there are definitely going to be times where I haven't thought of everything and the rep knows more than I do about the show about the host about what they're able to do. And so just to be open to their suggestions. Yeah. And especially with the, like, when it's a new show, for example, where you can't be prepared too, but it, you know, the content makes sense.
1 (21m 24s):
It's like, again, back to the relationships and that trust, you know, getting all the facts from who you're working with, relying on them too, to help you guide your recommendation on like, what's this new show about Larry. I love that you said that you role play because in our pod we've been talking about that more and more role play, not with necessarily a Negotiations, but also preparing for client calls and anticipating their questions. And I think that's the same thing in reverse with.
2 (21m 53s):
And I think when I was like 25, I would joke or laugh. Like, look, we're not going to send a room a role-play, but like whether I'm having a big call or some of my companies having a big call and we just want, you just want to talk it out, right? You want to, you don't want to be surprised or taken back by any of those questions or conversations, and that can always lead you in the right direction. Whereas you'll know, at what point, if I say Meredith, Kaylee, Elizabeth, like, if I can do this, can you do that? And like, you may not have ever gotten there if you weren't prepared for that. And that's really the key to any negotiation is the ability for my side is the ability, the ability to close it. And if I can do X, Y, and Z, then hopefully you guys can send me the order or we can come to the table.
0 (22m 29s):
So it sounds like there's a lot of preparation that goes into these talks, but there's also some unpredictability that comes along with it as well. We are no strangers to nerves here at, On the Mic. How do y'all prepare to not be nervous? Do you all feel nervous during these conversations going into them sometimes?
1 (22m 47s):
No, I, yeah.
2 (22m 50s):
If you're nervous and there are probably times when maybe any one of us are, but it's not for you. If you're nervous, that's the way I would say, it's not that it's in your blood or we were bred to do this or something like that. But I think that the same time, like this is our job, right? Like this is what we chose to do in life. And we all have enough experience now that look, you don't win them all. You're not going to win them all, but you get better from every conversation and you move that relationship in one direction or the, or the other, and you learn from whatever mistakes you may make and you, you know, hopefully you learn from whatever successes you have.
1 (23m 26s):
I definitely think there's a difference between being like strong in what you want and being like aggressive and assertive. So I think if you just go into it with the right frame of mind, like we're all people, there's nothing to be scared of or no one to be scared of and, you know, approach it
3 (23m 46s):
With a sensitivity. Then there's really no reason to be nervous. I will say though, when I started out young and negotiating with radio stations and, you know, the rep couldn't go any further than what I was asking and I needed it lower. And then there, you know, GM or a smidge station, regional vice president came on, you know, I would get nervous cause I'm like, okay, I'm talking to someone a little bit above, you know, my stature, but, but it was great. It was a great experience. And yeah, I mean, I love it now. So that's how you learn exactly. I was going to say, like, I think when I started out, I would think I was a really afraid to tarnish a relationship because it was asking for too much.
3 (24m 26s):
Right. But you kind of learn as you go along, like how much is too much really, or, you know, just the way we're creating that relationship you can ask for too much and then be like, no, like, you know, can't do that, but it's, again, this goes back to the relationships again about building those relationships with people. And then you find some reps that are just, you know, there are a little bit more aggressive than others and you kind of just have to reframe like how you talk to them or whatnot.
2 (24m 53s):
I would add that it's not nerves. I would be afraid in a little sense if I lost a big deal, if I got zero or shut out, but that's not nerves. That's just the hatred of losing the fear of having to report to someone above me that I got shut out on something. So that's not really nerves. And I would say the other part of it is, is that if I was actually nervous during the negotiation, that means I wasn't prepared the fact that the question prior
3 (25m 20s):
Now, Kaylee, I'm curious, you mentioned that sometimes you learn what's too much to ask, have y'all ever offended anyone by what you've asked of them? Oh yeah. Not necessarily here, but in a previous position, I definitely, I had somebody, it was a On, on a local radio station and I asked for, I had a client that was doing a contest and we, it was a newer client. So it was trying just to get as much as possible and asking for, you know, things for our contest and whatnot.
3 (25m 59s):
And for whatever reason, it offended them and like completely tarnished the relationship. And I was like, I, you know, I did not realize that I was asking too much of a, somebody new. I haven't had a relationship developed with them. Luckily I actually had to get like a director involved because that's how bad it was. It honestly, I didn't think I was asking for too much. I was following the advice of like my, you know, my colleagues that have more experience than me. And they just took it the wrong way. And I got my director involved and we got onto a call together and just talk this through. And luckily we were able to repair that relationship. That person is now one of my really good friends, even beyond now, but it, it can,
1 (26m 44s):
But you just have to over-communicate in that period and just, you know, fix the relationship and just, you know, be like, I was not trying to ask, you know, just talk to them and, you know, to try and fix it that way. But yes, I think yes, but definitely I think that's where it has to be more of a conversation than this is what I need. This is what I want. And this is what I expect from you. It's a two-way street. And if it, you know, is a flowing conversation and I think it's pretty hard to offend someone with your requests.
2 (27m 23s):
This guy really offended anyone. If it, on the sales side, if I've offended anyone, then I'll probably get kicked off of the agency in a sense, or a or B I have a real bad slap on the wrist. I mean, I can recall a story of when I was 25 of submitting something to one of these Media Queen's in New York and I had just picked up an agency and they had very little money and it was for a local ShopRite deal in DC. And I submitted a day party on Saturday six to eight to seven B and I got to, my boss, got a call. I got a call that I was being snotty and all that. And all I said back to the woman was I just copied the previous buyer, which is the day parts she had bought. And like, she thought that I was being why the bus and fresh and all of that.
2 (28m 5s):
Sorry. And I, you know, after I, after that happened, I realized that there are going to be irrational people that you're going to work with. And if you've got the support of management and people above you, then, you know, just be confident. But I really, I hope to think that I don't really offend anybody. That would be a bad tactic to take on my side.
1 (28m 27s):
I would say I've never offended somebody by what I've asked for, but apparently I've offended someone because when negotiating and filling that they were very lopsided in the negotiation, that's, I've questioned their integrity and their ethics. And so that didn't do well for them, but it did get the deal a little further along. And, and we have a good relationship now, two, by the way, just to put that in, I think it's interesting too, because it, that kind of comes from all sides. So like I've had a host of Podcast reach out to ask for like more product or multiple multiple products, which I don't think was like offensive, but I'm always kind of like, are you, are you kidding?
1 (29m 17s):
Like you're getting a free product and now you're like asking for more or demanding different things. And this is like free and for paying to run on your show. So I think it comes from like all sides.
2 (29m 30s):
Well, I hope you told them to buy more and use the offer code
1 (29m 33s):
Obviously. Well, I think top performers might get a little extra product and service. So how about that for a tactic? That's fair.
4 (29m 44s):
So maybe not so high that you've offended anyone, but is there, is there a such a thing as in general, aiming too high and I guess really, maybe another way to frame this as, how do you decide what to Aim for in the first place?
2 (29m 59s):
I, I think on my side, if I've got a proposal and I actually, I had this on Friday with, with actually the one agency I work with, it's not Ad Results where it was a packaged for like a a hundred grand or something. And someone follow up with me today and I'm like, I think we may have priced ourselves out of the game right off the bat because it's probably not worth even close to a hundred K. So I think that you can ask for too much. And like I said before About, there's so much competition in the marketplace that like, if you guys field five or six different proposals, and one of them is up here and the rest are all even keel, well, you may not even submit that to the client, or you may not even, you may throw that one out before the Negotiations even starts.
2 (30m 40s):
So you've gotta sort of know the marketplace in a sense of you don't want to help prior to that.
1 (30m 45s):
And from the agency side, I mean, I don't want to nickel and dime, you know, our partners. I think that whenever I go in, I try and see like, what is the average CPM, you know, or like what level of notoriety as the host so I can compare it, the CPMs accurately. I don't, again, I wouldn't want to ask for too much, but I'm always willing to ask for the right amount and a little more and a little more. And I think to Elizabeth's point earlier about knowing your reps that you're working with, you know, that there are certain reps that aren't going to budge and are really going to meet you in the middle. So you just have to know that maybe you don't put those on the plan.
1 (31m 28s):
If you're trying to really get an efficient price, you leave those shows off because what's the point of going back and forth. When you kind of already know they're going to be set in there in their price, in, in their ways.
2 (31m 43s):
Now on the flip side, I would say that I don't want to negotiate against myself either. I don't want to cut the price before I send it out to a client or the agency, if it's a a hundred K package, for example, and I've already cut it down to 75, well, maybe they would have bought it at 85 or a, a a hundred. So you've got a really understand who you're talking with when you're negotiating with what the client's goals are. And that's where I think, you know, back to the earliest point of over-communicating it and kind of getting as much information at the beginning will really help that process.
1 (32m 14s):
Yeah. So Larry, you need to know your, your bottom and we need to know the ceiling for the client. So,
2 (32m 21s):
Yeah, and I think that's where we find the, you know, that, that happy medium of if we get to, even if the bottom's 10 and the ceiling is a 140 is actually better for you guys then than 60 is to 60 would be better for me. But if you get 40 and 40 is a win for me, I'm good with that because then your client's happy that they want the negotiation as well. And I honestly think that the way that this business is going, getting the test, buy isn't the win and getting the renewals, the weather like that's, that's when the client's happy. And that's when the back to Elizabeth, the first point of that's when Larry will make the most money on the renewal
1 (33m 2s):
A hundred percent. And that's what I was going to say. It doesn't, it does you a disservice for putting the rate up really high, because then it's not going to work and we're not going to book it out. So there's no reason for you to be going so high. You know, when we want to be repeat customers,
2 (33m 21s):
Unfortunately for the way this is going. I know sometimes there are certain shows I send out that it won't work from the, from the jump. I mean, granted, most of the times, those are the ones that don't get bought because you guys know it as well, but there are cases where we just know going in that look, you got to have hits and misses it. That's the nature of this business.
1 (33m 42s):
Yeah. I like what you said about to get the renewal, because actually working with analytics on one of our committees to look into a new test hit rate. So of new shows, how many ended up being, you know, within performance range. And so
2 (34m 1s):
I think to that point, whatever data you're using, coming out of the pandemic was going to be a tough analytical, I think most shows out of the, the pandemic new shows I should say were more, more misses than hits.
1 (34m 14s):
Yeah. And, and we can take the data and we can look at analyze that. But I think we're going to analyze it by a network now to see how you do Larry.
2 (34m 21s):
But I know at the end of the day that if I keep working hard, that it won't deteriorate me from at least getting those conversations and I just have to work harder to get by and get the renewal.
1 (34m 32s):
Exactly. We love you, Larry. Well, we do. And I, I think that, again, like this whole conversation comes back to relationships like Larry, you know, that you could call any one of us at any time for a favor because we, we all work together and we can call you for favors. And it just works both ways. But if we didn't have those strong relationships, it'd be a lot harder.
2 (34m 58s):
No, I, I appreciate you saying that, but I'm going to save my favorites when I really, really need to,
1 (35m 2s):
Well, we're always willing to pitch anything if it makes sense. And that's where, that's where the teamwork comes in. Like, you know, the clients and I, you are probably my very, very favorite because you do this, you will bring us to the show and you will have already done a lot of the things to work for us. These are the clients that they've already approved. These are the way they already use this product. It would be a great fit, like half the battle's already won if the client's already using the product because we come to them for the story that they tell. So thank you so much for doing that. That's I wish,
2 (35m 34s):
And that's part of the, part of the negotiation in part of that, his kind understanding with the client and understanding your guys' needs, but it's providing that solution, right. You know, every challenge, I don't look at them as problems. We're going to miss challenges. And if we're looking to figure out the solution, then you know, don't be a part of the problem before the solution, which we talked about all the time internally is anyone that's not part of the solution is part of the problem, the problem,
1 (35m 56s):
But ultimately, you know, the shows. And so you would know if they would be a good fit for our clients. I mean, essentially you kind of have two jobs, Larry, and that, you know, the show's, but you also have to know our clients to see if you can come with recommendations when there are new shows or not new shows, but maybe knew to a client, you know, you kind of have to do the legwork double.
2 (36m 20s):
What's been tricky for me though over the last a day is not being able to travel and come see you guys, because I think part of that relationship is, is the entertainment and doing the in person stuff and sitting with each of you one-on-one and going through that client list and just getting to know you and your families and your life, and who's going to have a baby and whose kids are going to school and who's traveling to Cabo or whatever. It may be like that, that's a huge part of it for me. And the other part is the turnover rate. And now that Ad Results keeps growing and growing. And there's so many new names and faces that, you know, I'm just trying to learn them all. And plus everybody's names sounds alike. There's a, there's, you know, there's, there's tons of you that with all the same names now. So, you know, that's, that's, you know, like you said, that you got to know the clients got another Podcast and then got another, the player's in the game.
4 (37m 4s):
I know I'm enjoying this conversation so much, but we're, as we're approaching our time, I wanted to land on one final question for you guys. If you could give a professional who might be in a similar position going into negotiation, one piece of advice, what would that advice be?
1 (37m 22s):
Prepare, prepare up and, and do your research. I mean, that's part of the preparation, but really just understand what the needs are.
2 (37m 32s):
Every one of us, every one of you girls on the team and every, every one of the reps you deal with is their own personality. So you have to kind of find your own niche. It may be very similar to a competitor or to someone that you're is your colleague, but it's still your own. And you got to own that roll and stay in that lane. But I would also say though, is when you're younger. And I was at ABC iHeart, Westwind one and now a cadence. And I take little tidbits of all my experiences. And I like I've quoted three or four of them on this call, whether I mentioned them or not. And I use those in, in my life. I use them in my workplace. I use them as a father and they're, they're from people that are older than me that were more experienced than me that I could learn from, you know, the rule of the six P's or every conversation is going to get moved one way or the other, or just different things that you, you pick up in life and, you know, take that into your work and just be yourself.
2 (38m 27s):
You know, I like to think that there's no other salespeople out there that you guys work with that are like me, but I'd be crazy to think that that's a true, like there's people that are probably close or similar,
1 (38m 36s):
Or have some, some similarities in style's, but it's not going to be your own person. Find your own this, no one like you, Larry let's say that's true. I think it's funny that you sold the 49ers radio because the rest of the cells. Yeah. So the rep who sells it now, Daniel Herrmann, he's one of my other favorite reps. So it has to be said about the 49ers. That was my background in talk radio when I was with the ADC. And then I went over to a high heart and I sold tons of music. And then when I went back over to Westwood in Cumulus, it was kind of that talk radio. And my natural progression to Podcasting was talk radio and steroids as a listener first in a consumer of podcasts and then from a sales perspective.
1 (39m 18s):
So I love to talk radio. Yeah. I would say, be confident in yourself and in your knowledge, and you're confident in yourself, but don't get that mixed up with being aggressive and too assertive. Yeah. I really do think relationship matters here. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And just be prepared yourself. So to sum up everything to everyone's already said yourself, you know, develop that relationship, be prepared as much as you can be, and it should go pretty well if you're, you know, not aggressive and whatnot, it should be fine.
1 (40m 1s):
And I would also say, it's not all just work. They're going to be playing in there too. That's how you build those relationships. Like Larry was mentioning, gets to know the person you're talking to their families, their interests, things that they like to do outside of work, because that can only help, you know, down the line.
4 (40m 19s):
Well, as someone who doesn't have to negotiate very often, I can tell you that this topic is something that kind of scared me. Not scared me, but you know, the thought of doing what you guys do everyday was a more scary prospect until hearing you guys talk about it today. I hope that some of our listeners agree that it sounds like a lot of fun. It sounds like you guys really do enjoy working together. And I know that I learned a lot and I thank you guys all for joining Larry. Thank you so much, especially, and yeah, thanks so much guys.
1 (40m 51s):
Thanks, Larry. I'm looking for my On.
